Gunnar Habitz

Jam Mayer

Resources

Connect & Act Book

LinkedIn Social Selling Index Score

Shield

Jam

Nope. It's not about selling on social media, and it's not about spamming your prospects on social either. So what does it take to social sell? Welcome to the Conversologist podcast, where we talk about the art and science of conversation in the digital space. We know the technology can be a powerful enabler, but communication and emotional connections still need to be at the core.

I'm your host, Jam Mayer, and I invite you to converse with us. Today's guest is Gunnar Habitz, whose mission is to help smart leaders to connect and engage with their network, both online and offline, beyond word-of-mouth referrals. He recently published his book, Connect and Act, systematic Social Selling. Hello Gunnar and welcome to the show.

Gunnar

Hi Jam. Thank you so much for inviting me.

Jam

It's definitely a pleasure. Just a little bit of a background for our listeners and viewers is Gunnar and I have been working together when, yep. In Hootsuite, right Gunnar? And he was my partner manager. He was very, very supportive and up to this day, he is still very supportive of me and we engage once in a while on LinkedIn whenever I'm in there. But it's wonderful to actually have Gunnar as part of my network.

Jam

So I've got a few questions, it's an exciting episode. So look, as you know, there's still a lot of people out there mistake social selling as selling on social media, right? It's time that we clarified. Yep. Exactly what it really means.

I mean, what is social selling and well, what isn't social selling? 

Gunnar

Thank you so much for this question, which actually is very topical. So I created one definition in my book and I call it like this: social selling is a clever approach of using social media and digital tools to enhance business conversations.

There's a lot in this sentence, but number one, it's not about selling on social because that would be social commerce. Think about Instagram where you have a link and you would like to sell something so that customers buy. That's not social selling. It would be more maybe social engagement, but you can take that term also towards charity.

So for me, it's all about one ultimate target, and that is advancing the business agenda, whatever that means. So for a not-for-profit, they of course would like to gain funds. For a regular, normal company that would obviously like to sell something at the end. For universities it would be completely different.

It is maybe they have better access to overseas students that they can come over. As I, by the way, I studied English in Auckland back in '99. It would be impossible without knowing about the institute AUT beforehand. So there are various ways how social selling can work, but the ultimate target - advancing business conversation requires one thing, and that is to get into conversations.

And there we are in your name, Conversologie.

Jam

Yep. No, that's perfect. I absolutely love it. So I was just wondering, do you have any stories, personal stories when you, you've met someone probably or a group of people and they start out thinking they know what social selling is, but it's actually not, so what is not social selling?

Give me like one or two or three. Could be a story, could be a definition based on your experience. 

Gunnar

So, the tricky thing here is that whenever someone tries to engage with us on LinkedIn, they might either send a connection request, which is totally empty, then we do not know what they want from us.

Or even they put some standard text in writing as soon as we accept, maybe because they have a large network or whatever reason, then they start immediately pitching. That is not social selling. And it doesn't necessarily mean it's also limited only on LinkedIn because it can cross channels. It can be a combination of digital tools.

It can be about a blog post that I saw from someone so that triggers me to get to reach out. So the word 'trigger' actually means quite a lot. If I would see from someone that they talk about a topic that's relevant to me, that might prompt me initially to connect with them or at least to engage with their content.

Let me give you an example. Before working at Hootsuite, I've been in the business of risk management, highly specialized as the software vendor here in here in Sydney. And I wanted to tap into the area of operative security, also cybersecurity. And I've been looking for partners like consultancies.

They have all of the network and knowledge. But why would I click on 'Connect'? Rather, I thought let's engage with their content to find out what's going on. My target, what I wanted to do is I wanted you to fill a panel session at an event. Ideally with those who can express their areas of risk management, emergency management, and so on.

So then I posted something and simply saw what happened and those risk management consultants who have been eager to add their experience. They did that - longer comments than just saying, great post and a dialogue happened then in between this. That was awesome. So I could basically see this like an incoming way of getting professionals into my network and I could give them also a stage so that they could then speak in front of that conference in front of hundreds of people.

Jam

That's an awesome way of posting. Cuz you know, social content, everyone's asking, oh, how am I going to do it so it doesn't look like I'm promoting stuff? Or the other way of doing it is just as you said, just connecting. Very cold. No, they don't know who you are. But this is actually a far better way to connecting.

And as you said, adding to your network is you are sharing something and you are inviting, you know the stage, you are inviting the experts to come in to comment on it, and then that's when you start connecting. Cuz you already, you've, you've already communicated with them or you're starting that discussion within the comments and it becomes warm.

Is that right? 

Gunnar

Absolutely. If you like, I have another example. There was once a gentleman who posted from, from his social media agency on LinkedIn. I liked the content. I commented accordingly. We connected and I realised he's actually only 15 kilometers away. So we met for a coffee and over time, maybe over the course of nine months, we then started to engage and I realized that what he has to say is very valuable for my clients at Hootsuite and also vice-versa because he added that strategic element that I didn't have as a software vendor. And what does it result? He has now two pages in my book.

Jam

Oh, well, there you go. It's really about relationships Well, and conversations now. I absolutely love that. Okay, so in your book, right, and you've, you've mentioned this as well in, in a few of our conversations, is that you have your social selling framework.

Is based, I think, on an optical approach and you have your bricks model. I would love you to show that to our viewers and well to those listening as well. So tell us more about this brick model of yours.

Gunnar

Yeah, happy to do this. So first of all, I have been playing with Lego in all my childhood.

I think I won an award at a contest with age of six, unfortunately was my last contest I ever won. But at least it got me thinking, like taking Lego in a way of building blocks of something. The only bad thing if you build Lego, you build it up to the top. And if you stand in front of a task, let's say getting into social selling and you have a mountain of bricks in front of you, you will never get started.

So in my model, I put the bricks towards, towards the right, towards a horizontal timeline. So therefore you can see here a red brick, which is six starts long and that represents the personal brand. So there's a couple of elements to that brand. You do this, you have one thing, but it turns towards the right.

And based on this one, I can add something to it. Another one, which is a little bit longer, but not as wide. And that is a way how you connect with people. That means you need to find the right target audience. Not only prospective new clients, obviously not, but also those that you already know, people in your network, your suppliers, your partners, your market companions, sounds better than competitors, institutions, what all strong network can include.

And when you have done that and you know how to connect, so that others also respond to it. Then of course you can work on content because content is exactly that middle element that takes a relationship into a conversation which you can later convert. To content that starts with commenting, which is totally underrated strategy that most people totally ignore, unfortunately.

Then you create material that you get from somewhere to add your own view to it. Not just to re-share, but to tell your audience why you share this piece of content, why it's important. What's your take? What they can themselves learn from that. And when you have done that, the next part is then how to convert.

And convert doesn't necessarily mean selling, but advancing into the offline world. So there are also situations where you'll meet someone first face-to-face somewhere. But then you nurture over time online and whatever trigger can then be there to convert it further that you take the conversation back into the offline world, like call or virtual meeting or meeting at a conference or whatever it is. But conversion means further down in, in the whole marketing funnel. 

Jam

That's actually great because this is in my brain works in, in like circles. So it's, it's that it will actually be a cycle, and correct me if I'm wrong here, is when you go to convert, as you said, it doesn't have to be selling.

It could be convert, meaning someone knows someone knows someone, and then eventually while you build that relationship and the trust is there, then you will eventually get there. Right? Or podcasting for example. I always try to look for guests, right? And the guests that I've had in the last few episodes is really me, as you said, you know, starting that conversation. There is that commonality and with content sharing, but the conversion really there is when they say, Hey, yeah, sure. I'd love to be a guest in your podcast. Right?

Gunnar

Exactly.

Jam

I have a question, and I think this is the biggest question of all, is the middle brick, the yellow one, right?

Which is content. Do you have any tips on how to build that relationship or how do you put content or what type of content do you think is best so that you keep on you know, continuing that conversation so it just doesn't stop. 

Gunnar

The, the typical answer, of course, it depends on certain factors. So, if I'm already known in my field for something, I can regularly post about a topic. So that's what I've done. When I started posting on about social selling in November 2018, I thought I'd do it for a month or two.

To get through a couple of things, what it actually means, and now we have week number 236, and I simply forgot stopping. So content can also get you into an addictive mode of continuously sharing to get it into a habit, and then we have it with my last name. The tricky thing for many people is how to get started finding out what type of content to share, number one.

Number two, what formats. Then number three, maybe something like timing, because what we want to have for the content is ideally an engagement so that there are people out there who like it and even better, who comment on that because those comments might be seen by others. So the way how we do this, in my view, in terms of content creation, number one, to, for those who have never really started to finding their own voice, I would simply start commenting on the post of others.

It might not be that your ideal client posts something like, I'm in the market for this and that type of service. Please respond if you have something to offer that doesn't exist. That's not how social selling works. But we can indeed comment on post of others to create a bit of a personal brand on your opinion.

And commenting with three, four lines instead of just one can be very helpful. So that's number one. Number two, what I recommend also to find content from others that you can share. That is suitable for your network, for whatever other reason, as long as you can add magic introduction. Why this particular piece makes sense for your own network.

Of course, in the blue step you would've done before to create a proper network. But then when you start creating your own content there's a couple of things to consider. What helped me quite a lot is that I'm a passionate networker. I like to go out. And I simply share what I learned. For example, I went to events from MarTech companies like HubSpot or or other in that fields, or Salesforce or Microsoft or any of the tech companies.

And I simply give my eyes and ears and other senses to my audience as if they were in the target audience themselves, and I share what's going on. That is one, one way how you can build this as if you are the chosen person on behalf, your ideal network member. That also helps a lot to tap into networks.

So when I wanted to work at HubSpot one day, then of course it would be suitable to actually also engage with those working there. So that's this. And then the tricky thing there is of course, finding the right format. The worst thing for someone who's not a seasoned blogger is to sit in front of a white page and not knowing what to write, how to start and how to get a structure on it.

And I have a couple of topics in this book that can help people get started. And particular because I created a book based on 42 double pages. So on each double page, something like maybe about the format of a post. It helps automatically to get an understanding that starts on the top left side of the book and goes to the bottom right, and it has then four tips, which really says how to get started, what type of in that case format would be good.

And, and further reading can be provided with with the link and QR code at the bottom of the page. Because the tricky thing is if you stand in front of a topic, like, how do I post, what do I do? It's a big thing, like you sit in front of a massive family pizza and you only go piece by piece instead of taking the pizza in 16 pieces.

And then go step by step and you really already made the first out of 16 and then the second, so you get more into a milestone approach. And that's how I created that book that you figure out. That's how I comment well. That's how that works. You put into action and then, ah, how is it creating and how can I get into the more modern topic of content, like to create a visual carousel, which is highly engaging.

It's all in the book.

Jam

I just wanna go back to the, to the connection and the content cuz it is, it is really woven, you know, together. Would you say that you are already creating your own little content, even by just commenting, you mentioned that. So if you don't know where to start, what you can do is comment first. Do you agree that that's a form of content as well?

Gunnar

It totally is a form of content and recently, maybe one, two years ago, LinkedIn added a bit of a function. If you comment in a decent form, let's say 3, 4, 5 lines with something, then LinkedIn would say, hey, that looks good.

Do you want to turn this into a post on its own? Not that I ever did this just based on a comment, but it gets you a starting point. Then I say, oh, apparently it might resonate. Particularly when I see people who like my comment. Then I can take something from there. And put it then further. So what I've done over the years, I have one word file for every calendar year where I grab all of my notes regarding posting.

If I see something from a comment on my own post, I note it down. If I attend an event or webinar, I write it and sometimes I even sit, in a room, like on this particular mentioned HubSpot event with Graham Hawkins from Melbourne. I've been sitting there and typing and, and before the, before the, they, the speakers ended their their speech I already posted.

So, and that works. And then also the way you can do the comments as you go, but think strategically about it. Which other people you would like to have in your network may make sense to comment. And ideally with the givers gain mentality, not in a sense of only what's helpful for myself, but think how you can have someone so that as a consequence they can apply, apply the law of reciprocity, and then pay back the favor in whatever form.

Jam

And that's, I guess, where the power of conversation within social selling is at. It's not about, yes, the sharing of the content on your feed is one, but I think, and again, I don't know if you agree or disagree, is it's really on the engagement. It's a conversation that happens during those, you know, the comments section.

And to your point it's not just saying, great post or congratulations or whatsoever, that's not real content and that's not even a real conversation. A real conversation is really putting in some value in your comments so that the person reading it would actually answer and engage, right, instead of a reaction.

Gunnar

Absolutely. I really really agree on this one. The conversation is something that, that matters and you can turn them always into the offline mode. So, or even, even from public into private. Because if I see that somebody is commenting nicely and they might be a second grade connection or even third because nobody else sits in between that I might then realize, oh, that is a good point.

Let me check why they say this, what's their background? And then I figure out that we have a couple of common things. I could of course, straight click on connect, but then I've missed a chance. I would rather say to a person. I, I could say, Hey Jenny, I just saw your lovely comment on my post about topic X, and I saw that you further also had a nice content about it last month. With your permission, it would be nice to connect with you. 

So then I created a double trigger in the messaging because as soon as she confirms, then this sits in there. It's not just about, we have so many people in common that might add up over the years, but rather it starts from a comment. I can add the topic in there, and in my view, LinkedIn is the most underrated search engine, LinkedIn messaging.

So I will put there about a post about topic X so that I can search for it later. And then when I also then add something like what she wrote about, then I have two angles and two triggers that I can later then search about.

Jam

Let's move on to time. This is, you know, for my clients and you know, colleagues as well.

So time is a big factor. I know we should be consistent with whether it be commenting or you know, social posts on the feeds, et cetera. How do you keep up? I'm sure you have thousands and thousands of connections, right? How do you keep up and is there a way, you know, maybe a magic formula to keep up and have the time to actually keep on conversing.

Gunnar

Good one. Because most of us, we are working, and this is part of it, but it's not the only thing. So nobody pays us for being on LinkedIn the whole day. That was not even the case when I worked at Hootsuite, despite, it is so close to social media. The way how I work on this one. I figure out time blocks during the day where it makes sense that change actually due to the pandemic so that not everyone is commuting anymore.

But something like posting in the morning is surely better than in the late afternoon. Particularly the Friday afternoon is gone, but also the Monday morning is gone. Then it's not so successful. So finding out when it's the right time to post, and there are tools who can have that, like actually Hootsuite does have that.

But beyond that, on time, there's one thing as well, many people think they can post and forget. But that doesn't work. So the algorithm wants that if something is posted that there is an engagement that happens in the, the next hour one and a half or so. So that helps to spread that particular post further in terms of the reach.

So ensure when I post at something like 7:30, then I have a window to reply to comments or even share this particular post further to others or, or tag other people on it in the morning. I might return to it for sure over lunchtime to figure out what's going on, and then in the evening as well. But when it comes to time, I divide it into two topics.

So on one side we have the time that I need to, I call it for the week to prepare the week. So let I know what I'm posting when. I work a bit of a structure that I can write my post in, in bulk and then I can post them as I go. But I know that's something I always write on Monday. Some other topic, in my case on technology, more on a Tuesday and something more about a personal development, maybe even over the weekend.

My 'Learn from Books' newsletter typically on a Saturday. So I have this type of planning for the week. And then during the week, it's more the operative type of posting but also reacting and taking the time to engage with the post on others. 

Jam

Was there any time that you actually missed a comment and didn't respond?

Or are you, you're very systematic wherein you, as much as possible you do know and you make sure that you respond to all of the reactions. 

Gunnar

Well, one side is knowing, but on the other side, this topic is so much evolving fast. So we are also, we all are learners on it. So then sometimes I didn't engage a bit on purpose when I realized I, let's say, forgot or life came in the way on one day, that I want you to see what happens when a normally oppose would have a certain expectation on, on their reach, engagement and so on.

And if I don't do it at the beginning and I simply stop doing that, just to figure out that indeed the result is lower compared to engage ongoingly. The only thing, what often prevents people from this engagement is that they believe it is a burden to do that, particularly those in sales. They do not see how it immediately helps them to to pitch to customers.

But that makes no sense. It's not about that. But doing this helps actually to enhance the network. Because one day even every salesperson would like to find the right angle towards the different people of a buying committee. And here we have the way how that can work.

Jam

That's absolutely great. 

Jam

Okay. I am an analyst and I love data, so let's move on to measuring success.

It's always ROI, or at least, if not ROI, just you know, is it more about how many warm prospects you get or is it just engagement rate or seeing comments? Or maybe is it really more of the long-term relationship?

Gunnar

Surely a couple of factors, depending the strategy. LinkedIn would now say there is a very easy, understandable KPI for it called social selling index, which everyone can figure out called linkedin.com/sales/ssi normally to have any paid subscription for that. And that gets the number on four topics.

Something like how to build a network and how to set up a personal brand, how to find people and how to engage with them. But that number doesn't tell too much in my view. So the way how I look at is also getting more on one side. I like to have the premium version of LinkedIn because it tells me who viewed my profile of the last 90 days.

So that's something I look on an on a weekly basis, who is there, who, for whatever reason, found me or engaged with content maybe for a good reason. So then I would like to ensure that I get them. If I don't have a premium version, it only takes me the last five people, which is nothing. So that's one side of what can help on the KPI, on the, on the metrics type of thinking for broaden the reach.

The other thing is obviously there are some terms like getting the views or impressions, which many on Google say that not really important, we need to get the comments. But if you take it like a funnel, you need to put people in so that you get some. I would sort of say, so if I don't get views, then I cannot get likes and I don't get comments, but I would like to get the comments because they have to convert.

That only is possible if I write my content in a way that the right density of people can see it, not the big number. I'm not looking for something like a quantity or quality approach. That in my view is wrong. If I change one letter, I have it. I need quantity of quality, the right people in there who then see the content can engage with it, and I can kind of manipulate or steer this while with using hashtags and so on, and then also I can engage with them.

How do I find that? That is with external tools because there's not so much in it inside of LinkedIn for that, not even in the Sales Navigator edition. So I used a tool called Shield App, which is from Denmark, from under Johnson. And that is the nice way how we can get even back over the years, how your content performs.

And based on this you can draw conclusions. But overall, the measuring, the return on investment of this depends what the strategy is. If it's just awareness without selling anything, you can do this, let's say a little bit easier. But if you then don't capture that awareness, you do not know why people go there.

So for me, it's always a qualitative approach in there as well. That then actually works. 

Jam

So let's step back a bit. Going back to your bricks model, and I think there is one that says complete and it's around your profile on LinkedIn. How important is it for us to optimise your profile? Or does it really matter?

Gunnar

In my view, it matters a lot because there is one thing which is really awesome with LinkedIn compared to websites. Every company's website somehow looks different with the advent of WordPress and other other, let's say, CMS building tools. Of course there are certain commonalities, but you always need to look at the different place.

With LinkedIn, similar to Facebook, Twitter, and so on, we know what to find when. We can compare within maybe two, three seconds if the profile looks actually, kind of updated professional, or if it is just an online CV from 20 years ago and really 20, because LinkedIn now turned 20 on the 5th of May 2023.

So you can quickly see if someone is optimised for this or not. We know also one thing, whatever we want to do in terms of business or even from a consumer point of view, we do not just. I would ourselves that you would like to buy something. We rather would like to first test something out.

We go to buy fashion. We first want to want to try. And then we maybe say that we interested in it. Same goes on LinkedIn. We get referrals. I need a business coach. I get two or three examples. What do I do before reaching out? I check them out on LinkedIn. Now I can easily see if someone is updated in his profile or not.

If it looks like comprehensive. If the person most likely knows what to talk about or if they're totally out and shy and better to say not really updated, maybe not, maybe not in business anymore, maybe not up to date or anything. Therefore, the profile is important. There's two reasons why somebody comes to our profile.

They are either searching for us as a person. Or they're searching for something, what they're looking for, and then they end up at our profile. So we need to target both. If, for example a former colleague of mine who has been working back in the days in with me in Switzerland now tries to find me by name, in Australia.

He at least had my name. Another one would completely differently look for something what I'm doing, like a partner manager. And then then realize that maybe compared to others. My profile actually also talks about content, talks about hashtags. It's all there. And that also tell the story. So occasionally updating the profile is required that they, I look at it on a quarterly basis to figure out what I can potentially change but also ongoingly, I take parts of my content, which is either important or successful or whatever, and put it as a star on it so that it appears as a featured item. So I can always do and refresh this a little bit.

Jam

Quarterly. Wow. I think the last time I've updated my profile was a year ago. It's still, I mean, it's still current.

Gunnar

Jam, I mean, rather checking if it's still everything good and then maybe annually we do a little bit of a revision.

Jam

Got it. And based on your experience, are there any sections in the profile that you think once you check quarterly or every six months, is there anything that we should kind of look for?

Gunnar

Obviously the headline should work. The, the picture should, should be okay. The background image should be appealing which is tricky for those in, in corporate organisations who often have their rules, how it should look like or not. But it's a personal brand, it's not a company brand. So then we have certain freedom, what we can do.

And then for me, what's important also there on this is with new features coming into LinkedIn our profile looks updated when we make use of it. So one of them is a creator mode, and you can find it out if somebody has below the headline written talks about. And then up to five topics with a hashtag about it.

So that's one way how the profile will be more optimized towards gaining followers, not just connections. And therefore the whole, the whole setup is somehow exchanged, but it gets also the featured items higher so that the whole topic of content is more visible.

Jam

So one last question before we end.

So let's flip it a little bit. Will social selling actually work for job seekers or is it just really for salespeople or marketing or entrepreneurs and so on?

Gunnar

That's an interesting question because if you see the timeline of LinkedIn, it started to be an online CV type of tool, and many people said, and still say, I don't go into LinkedIn because I do not want to change my job, and only then I'm active because I apply, and that's it.

That is this type of yesterday mindset, which still many people have, unfortunately. If someone is looking for a job, and can use also social setting activities because if they would be interested in a certain area. So for example, I'm working in a partnership mode, so I'm working with the so-called middle man, middle woman, whatever you call it which is often enhancing a piece of technology from the vendor towards their end customer.

So then of course, I can use social selling activities in that area to write about, to share to a potential employer that I would be, that, that I'm constantly updating my knowledge that I know the topics, what's currently discussed. So as a job seeker, I can very much use this instead of just saying I'm open for work.

Jam

Well in closing, is there anything, if there was, there's so many gems in this episode, but if there was one thing you'd like our listeners or viewers to take away from social selling, what would that be? 

Gunnar

Just get started. Don't think about content as a white sheet of paper with nothing on there because I also have tips in the books, how, how they can start this templates or something like this.

You can even use ChatGPT to get some kind of thoughts about as long you don't copy one-on-one, but just get started. Comment on the work of others. Figure out what gets you into conversations. And if so, also create your own content. You'll be surprised. It'll be an awesome way to connect with people who otherwise you would not be able to know.

And as a nice example, when I had the physical book launch of this book in on the 4th of May, my birthday I had the room full of people where half of them, I would not know without LinkedIn at all because I started commenting.

Jam

Thank you Gunnar, for sharing your insights and stories around social selling and for being such a great guest.

So for the listeners and viewers out there, check out 'Connect and Act' at Amazon. We'll provide the link in the show notes, okay, where you can buy the book. I highly recommend you should. I, of course I do have a copy. I am waiting for a signed copy Gunnar, so there you go. Thank you. And don't forget to leave a message on Spotify and let us know your thoughts on this episode.

If you found us on social, leave a comment. Start a conversation. Hit that follow button, or as they say the bell to be notified of the next episode on your favorite podcast app. Thanks for listening and viewing, and remember to keep the conversation going.